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Sons of Confederate Veterans have their own simmering civil war

By Andrew Meacham, Times Staff Writer
In print: Saturday, June 14, 2008


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TAMPA — The Sons of Confederate Veterans say they will permanently install a giant Confederate flag near the junction of Interstates 4 and 75 to counter what they consider increasing slights to Southern heritage.

But the group, founded 112 years ago to protect all that is noble about the South, is itself racked by angry divisions.

Since the 1990s, clusters of Sons members have aligned themselves with "heritage groups" like the League of the South and the Council of Conservative Citizens, both considered hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The law center says the Sons may have been taken over by extremists.

"We had this group that looked like it had really radicalized to the right," said the law center's Mark Potok. "But as we looked more closely, we realized that this was really a battle from within."

In response to such charges, the Sons' Florida commander in 2002 sent interracial pornography to a female researcher at the center. John Adams later apologized, but he remains with the organization.

Today, he is co-chairman of the effort to install Confederate flags across Florida, including the one in eastern Hillsborough.

• • •

Experts say the divisions within the Sons vary between two extremes. On one side are the traditionalists, members who focus on cleaning up Confederate grave sites and conducting Civil War re-enactments.

On the other side are the so-called Lunatics, up to 2,000 members who deride traditionalists as "grannies'' and belong to camps named after notorious Southern figures such as John Wilkes Booth and Jesse James.

John Wilkes Booth members have been known to put pennies in urinals, making sure to leave the Lincoln side face-up. Other Lunatic groups have removed the U.S. flag from their halls and banned the Pledge of Allegiance, says Walter Hilderman, who several years ago created an anti-Lunatic group called Save the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

"The problem is it's supposed to be a patriotic organization," says Hilderman, 59. "You are either that or you let guys in who want to secede."

Hilderman is hardly liberal. He laments the decline of traditional values, believes in flying the Confederate flag, and thinks anti-communist crusader Joseph McCarthy was on to something.

Which leads to an important point: The internal divisions within the Sons are often as much about style as substance.

All members extol what they consider the virtues of the Confederacy. All are offended by the banning of Confederate flags from state capitols, as happened in Tallahassee several years ago.

The divisions are over how to respond to them.

For airing his grievances against the Sons to the national media, Hilderman was expelled from the organization in 2004. Many of his supporters across five camps were suspended.

Good riddance, says Kirk Lyons, a lawyer who called Hilderman's group a "misdirected and ill-gotten group of losers." Lyons is the founder of the Southern Legal Resource Center, a nonprofit law firm that has filed numerous lawsuits to keep Confederate symbols visible.

• • •

Lyons' own ties to white supremacists are well known, from defending their leaders in court to marrying the daughter of Aryan Nations founder Richard Butler.

While the Southern Legal Resource Center is not affiliated with Sons of Confederate Veterans, their missions overlap. "People are being unfairly attacked simply for trying to stick up for a symbol," said Lyons, 51. "Look at all the people kvetching about a private flag in Florida."

Questions remain about cross-membership in the Sons and other heritage groups, especially the League of the South. Former Sons "heritage defense" chief Roger McCredie, who now directs the Southern Legal Resource Center, estimated in 2002 that "several thousand" League members also belonged to the Sons. McCredie now says that was just a guess.

League of the South founder J. Michael Hill, a proponent of "European" cultural dominance, is as active as ever. In October, he met with Vermonters in a joint conference about secession. And in a 2008 speech, the former history professor exhorted his audience with a blend of populism, separatism and Christianity.

"Your life, your liberty and your property are in the crosshairs of an organized criminal conspiracy that seeks to take them from you,'' Hill warned.

Those kinds of affiliations cloud the Sons of Confederate Veterans, an organization that still contains thousands of "your basic history buffs," said Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Greensboro, N.C., restaurateur Gilbert Jones, who left the Sons a few years ago, is more blunt. "Those guys are in a state of denial about who is in the group," he said. "There's a wide variety, but the extremists tend to take charge."

Andrew Meacham can be reached at (813) 661-2431 or ameacham@sptimes.com.


.Fast facts

Confederate

flag rasing

The Sons of Confederate Veterans plan to raise a Confederate flag at 8 a.m. today on their property at the intersection of U.S. 92 east of Interstate 75. Leaders say there will be black supporters attending the event, which will mark Flag Day.


[Last modified: Jun 20, 2008 02:35 PM]



Comments on this article
by Rouge Jun 14, 2008 11:36 PM
Hey Duane, you are the pervert--- you pervert the real truth about the Civil War. Go look it up in a REAL history book, not the one you read in the 5th grade. It was about STATE'S RIGHTS, which is still a struggle in the 21st century!
by Carl Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
The Confederate flag is a symbol honoring the valor of the Southern soldiers of all races who died during the war. Anyone who misuses the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate is wrong and anyone who thinks the flag is one because of that is stupid.
by Wayne Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
A little research will show you that the SPLC was created to enrich its creators by exploiting the fears they themselves are responsible for creating by conjouring images of vast hosts of racist organizations. They are dispicable and can't be trusted
by Wayne Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
The "conflict" between SCV members boils down to a realization by many that "no man can serve two masters". Either the cause of the South was honorable (which it was), or you accept the lies/distortions of those who celebrate our subjugation.
by Charles Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
Pres Lincoln hung a 47 PERCENT tariff on all cotton shipped from the SOUTH to Eng. And a 47% tax on all cotton goods coming back into USA. The NORTH was BROKE and had no exports to make money. TAX on cotton kept the US Treasury full. SOUTH said NO !
by J Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
Please St Pete Times, keep your hateful printing going. The more twist and plain ole falsehoods you put on the facts, the more members we find! And y'all still think it's about a flag. Deo Vindice
by Joyce Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
SCV's goal is to honor brave men and women who sought to protect both home and country. It's sad when radicals get involved and promote their own agenda, thereby defeating the real purpose of the organization - heritage, not hate.
by Al Jun 14, 2008 11:35 PM
I can't see how anyone with a brain can take anything the Southern Poverty Law Center says seriously. If you do any homework at all you find their record is so horrendously checkered that they cannot be taken seriously.
by Jimmy Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
I think those who still believe that the civil war was over slavery need to get their money back from their schools. The civil war was over states rights, the ability to negoatiate deals with other countries, slavery was just a small part of it
by John Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
It is interesting that you do not mention that the human rights commission says "that there are more slaves today than there were in 1860".The 1860 census listed more free blacks in the south than in the north.Africa has more slaves today than US.
by Bob Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
To Dan... That thought process won't work. We had all hoped for the same thing with the "Bloods and Crips" fighting, and all the other gang wars. It seems like those people - yes, I said it - just keep multiplying.
by stonewall Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
Slavery was wrong! But it was an afterthought for the North and not a primary focus for the South. 3% of Union were abolishionists and the South had Free Blacks fighting with the Confederacy long bfore the Mass. 64th. Learn your history duane.
by Pete Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
Some of you need to actually read history and try to understand it. The average person dying for the flag was just that, average. Not a racist, not a fanatical just an American.
by Ann Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
This country does not need more division. The Confederate Flag is long gone; let's leave it there.
by Dave Jun 14, 2008 11:34 PM
It's no surprise they bicker with each other; stupid people love to fight.
by Patrick Jun 14, 2008 11:33 PM
As a past Commander of an SCV Camp I do not know where people get the idea that SCV is Racist, it is open to all decendants of Confederate Soldiers who served honorably, Black, White, Indian, German, Spanish, French. It was a noble cause! Not Slavery
by Clint Jun 14, 2008 11:32 PM
"Americans" salute Old Glory; the same flag that flew from Northern slave ships; the same flag soldiers flew as they exterminated Indians; and the same flag that is the official Klan flag. Why are "Americans" patriots and "Southerners" racist?
by Bud Jun 14, 2008 11:32 PM
The "Hate" that people express regarding the Confederate flag is in the eyes and hearts of the beholders. As far as why the war was fought many of these posters need to learn their history as slavery was a minor part of secession.
by Terry Jun 14, 2008 11:32 PM
Good hatchet job. The SPLC is a poor source - they also say the United Daighters of the Confederacy is a hate group. By the way, the SCV has more black members than the NAACP has white members. This article is full of crap.
by Raymond Jun 14, 2008 11:32 PM
YOU ARE ALL EITHER BRAIN WASHED OR STUPID. OK WHY DON'T WE BACKGROUND THE "BLACK LEADER" HUM? I BET WE'LL FIND SOME REALLY GOOD STUFF.BY YOU PEOPLES THINKING,THEN LETS GET RID OF ALL BLACK SCHOOLS,SCHOLERSHIPS,PAGENTS,CLUBS,RAP,YOURQUICKTOCHANGEOTHRS
by Rich Jun 14, 2008 11:32 PM
It is as simple as not wanting someone to fly a flag that by size and placement, appears to represent all of Hillsborough's residents. If you want to fly one the size of a building at the entrance of the city, then I want some say in it.
by VaSteve Jun 14, 2008 11:31 PM
Old Glory flew over slavery for 89 years.During the war there were 4 Union slave states.West Va,in 1863, made it 5.Lincoln served one term and was in his second and NEVER abolished slavery(except DC)It ended 8 months after Abe's death.
by JR Jun 14, 2008 11:31 PM
Dan "kill each other off and save the rest of lot's of time and money" do you know you could be brought up on federal charges for a hate crime statement like that?
by Jay Jun 14, 2008 11:31 PM
Why is it that the north ended the war 143 years ago and southerners still have these battling sub-groups?I have pride in my heritage but I don't need a public arena to spotlight it.That flag is tainted with social insults & serves as a re-reminder.
by Sand Jun 14, 2008 11:31 PM
All of this country's history is preserved and displayed factually in many museums for all to see.Why these people feel they have to shove this old piece of cloth which screams human suffering & abuse down our throats is unreal.THEY can't even unite
by Duane Jun 13, 2008 5:23 PM
Anyone who feels the south fought for a noble cause is more of a pervert than the people who hang out in the adult theatres in Drew Park. Waging war to keep human beings enslaved. Many of them thought they were christians, too. Sick twisted perverts.
by Rowdy Jun 13, 2008 5:22 PM
Are all races represented, or are you a bunch of bigots?
by Jim Jun 13, 2008 3:54 PM
So why don't we just hang a swastika or a hangman's noose anywhere we please? After all, a swastika was originally an American Indian peace symbol. Because free speech, while protected, has it's limits. Symbols associated with hate are just offensive
by ed Jun 13, 2008 3:49 PM
HEY!! NICE FOLLOWUP!!!! of course, a quick search ot the southern poverty law center's site for SCV and also league of the south, would have told you all this BEFORE embarassing yourselves with your UNCRITICAL coverage last week!! disgraceful!!
by Ted W. Jun 13, 2008 3:49 PM
Not a symbol of hate?
by Bart Jun 13, 2008 3:49 PM
The article is well researched, but whether, or not, all members of the SCV are pure of heart is not the question. Are Southerners more racist than Northerners, and is the Confederate Battle Flag a symbol of hate? The answers are no!
by Pete Jun 13, 2008 3:48 PM
Brother against Brother – that is the reality of the civil war. A war that was about states rights, a war that shaped who we are today. Nevertheless of the outcome both sides lost many. They fought for what they believed or were told to believe, not much different from today. Fly the flag in their honor fly it high and never forget the sacrifices of those Americans!
by JIM Jun 13, 2008 3:17 PM
The SCV should stick to cleaning graves and replacing tombstones.
by Dan Jun 13, 2008 3:16 PM
Pinheads at war with other pinheads; maybe they'll kill each other off and save the rest of us lots of time and money.
by Holly Jun 13, 2008 3:16 PM
History is history; it is what it is! Does a flag really "diminish" the persons that we are? We must be a country defined by symbols, not of substance! People, get over your emotional crap...
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