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What are Florida's votes— real, virtual or imaginary?

By Adam C. Smith, Times Political Editor
In print: Thursday, April 24, 2008


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Nearly 1.75-million Democrats voted in Florida's officially meaningless presidential primary, and it remains to be seen whether Florida will send any delegates to the national convention.

But in this Twilight Zone of a campaign, a more cosmic question arises: Do the Florida votes actually exist?

In Barack Obama world the answer is no. Clinton's 295,000-vote victory margin in Florida is basically imaginary. The candidates chose not to campaign in the state, the argument goes, so the votes should be purged from the minds of any uncommitted superdelegate.

On planet Hillary Clinton, those Florida votes are as real as the White House itself. We cannot pretend a record turnout of voters never happened.

This Florida riddle gained importance when Clinton beat Obama on Tuesday in Pennsylvania, another big swing state. Obama's lead over Clinton in pledged delegates may be insurmountable, but Clinton might still overtake him in the popular vote count, which doesn't really matter except that it would be a persuasive argument for Clinton to make with the "superdelegate" party officials who will choose the nominee.

But to catch Obama's vote total, Clinton needs Florida's ballots.

"Those votes count,'' the New York senator insisted to the St. Petersburg Times recently. "They're part of the popular vote. You can't erase them. They were certified. The secretary of state said they happened; 1.75-million people showed up. I believe that they were part of this primary election season."

In an already confounding election, however, measuring the popular vote can be a murky exercise. Consider:

• Michigan, like Florida, lost its delegates for violating the national party rules by holding a January primary, and Obama actually took his name off the ballot to avoid antagonizing party leaders in early election states such as Iowa and New Hampshire. The result was Clinton 55 percent and "uncommitted" 40 percent.

• Four states — Iowa, Nevada, Maine and Washington — held caucuses where the overall vote totals never were reported.

• In Florida, no delegates were at stake, and the candidates did not campaign.

The respected Web site RealClearPolitics.com finds the clearest cut popular vote tally gives Obama a lead of 500,353 votes. Extrapolating totals for Iowa, Nevada, Maine and Washington, Obama's lead rises to 610,575.

Throw in Florida, and Obama's lead drops back down to 315,803. Then add in Michigan, giving Clinton the votes for her and Obama zero votes, and suddenly Clinton takes the popular vote lead by 12,506 votes, or .04 percent.

If she can maintain that lead through the nine contests between now and June 3 she can try to argue to superdelegates that not only is she winning more crucial, swing states than Obama but that she has won more votes overall. Of course, that's no certainty, as Obama is heavily favored in the May 6 primary in North Carolina, the most populous state remaining.

Candidates win the nomination with delegates, not popular votes. That's why the Obama campaign shrewdly targeted its resources toward specific congressional districts and low-turnout caucus elections to maximize his delegate haul in state after state.

"If this was about popular vote ... we would have gone and lived in California and tried to run up the score in Illinois and spent more time in New York and New Jersey,'' Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said Wednesday.

"But we constructed our strategy based on pledged delegates, as did she.''

But neither Obama nor Clinton can win without winning over undecided superdelegates, who are free to consider any subjective measurement they want — including the disputed votes in Florida and Michigan.

"If the gap between Clinton and Obama is 300,000 votes and those Florida votes could have made the difference," said U.S. Rep. Jason Altmire, a Democrat from western Pennsylvania whose district easily chose Clinton, "then some people are going to use that."

The Obama campaign is pushing back hard on any suggestion that Florida or Michigan should count for anything.

Michigan is a different matter, but in Florida, Obama and Clinton were both on the ballot, and a record number of Democrats turned out with strong encouragement from the Florida Democratic Party.

Regardless of delegates awarded, many Democrats dispute the notion that the election was somehow an invalid reflection of voter sentiment because the candidates did not stage rallies or pay for robo calls.

"Was somebody living in a cave? Didn't they turn on Good Morning America and the Today Show?'' asked Sen. Bill Nelson, a Clinton supporter who said superdelegates "absolutely" should consider the results in Florida.

"If the people in Florida either read a newspaper or turned on a television and/or a radio ... they certainly were subjected to the campaigning that was occurring and indeed responded."

Muriel K. Offerman, a superdelegate and DNC member from Raleigh, N.C., said that she may consider the outcomes in Florida and Michigan when deciding whom to support but that she'll keep in mind that Obama "absolutely" would have done better against Clinton had he campaigned there.

"It's hard to ignore them, because so many people voted. But again, you hope you can ignore them on the one hand – it was against the rules of the party," she said. "Whether I consider half the numbers, or two thirds, I don't know yet."

Times staff writer Wes Allison contributed to this report. Adam C. Smith can be reached at asmith@sptimes.com or (727)893-8241.

Correction: A previous version of this story indicated Hillary Rodham Clinton would claim the lead in the national popular vote if Michigan results were counted and the nearly 240,000 "uncommitted" votes were given to Barack Obama. But for Clinton to claim the lead, Obama would have to be given zero votes from Michigan, where his name was not on the ballot.


Breaking down the popular vote count



Barack ObamaHillary ClintonAdvantage
Current popular vote14,751,218 (49.3%)14,140,643 (47.2%)Obama (610,575)
Current popular vote (including Florida)15,327,432 (48.4%)15,011,629 (47.4%)Obama (315,803)
Current popular vote (including Fla., Mich.)15,327,432 (47.5%)15,339,938 (47.5%)Clinton (12,506)



Note: Vote totals include estimates of caucus voters in Iowa, Nevada, Maine and Washington.

Source: RealClearPolitics.com


[Last modified: Apr 29, 2008 09:32 AM]



Comments on this article
by Russ Apr 29, 2008 9:32 AM
According to DNC rules, the penalty for not following the primary date is 50% loss of delegates. Dean decided not to follow the rules and back Obama by not counting any that might put his candidate behind.
by Nick Apr 25, 2008 12:46 PM
rest assured that whatever it takes to cheat, Obama and his walmart china loving supporters who have driven up our gas prices will do it
by ClintonsHateDemocrats Apr 24, 2008 6:19 PM
clinton is only in this to help McCain so she can run against him in 4 years
by Sammy Apr 24, 2008 6:17 PM
dearest Caroline - get the facts straight. it was Democratic FL Senator, Jeremy Ring, who brought forward the legislature to move the Primary date forward. Every Democrat except one voted in favor of breaking the KNOWN DNC rules.
by Erin Apr 24, 2008 6:17 PM
When FL made the decision to move up the primary, we knew what the consequences would be. Why are we outraged then, when the DNC is doing exactly what they promised? There was no campaigning here, how could that be looked at as a fair contest?
by Tommy Apr 24, 2008 6:17 PM
JK - Obama did not campaign in Florida after the Pledge was signed. None of them did. Not even Hillary - as when she signed the Pledge - she didn't care about your votes. Then.
by Sybil Apr 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Russ - You might want to take that up with Terry McAuliffe as he was the Chair of the DNC when the rules were written into the DNC By-Laws. Call Terry - he's a big help. Or not.
by MIKE Apr 24, 2008 6:17 PM
I WANT MY VOTE COUNTED IT IS MY MY MY MY RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT. OUR FOUNDING FATHERS MUST BE TURNING IN THEIR GRAVES.STALIN MUST BE LAUGHING UP A STORM!!
by Benjamin Apr 24, 2008 6:01 PM
So the message we are sending about Floridians. Republicans in Florida can't count and Democrats in Florida don't count. Sound about right?
by George Apr 24, 2008 11:47 AM
Early in the campaign no one knew much about Obama. Neither camapign in Florida. How could a good judgment be made. Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. Too late for all. Leave things as they are. Convention decision.
by Caroline Apr 24, 2008 11:47 AM
Why is it never mentioned in the coverage that it was a Republican dominated Florida legislature that voted to move up the primary date in Florida thereby disenfranchising the Florida Democrats once again in the election of the next U.S. President?
by mike Apr 24, 2008 11:47 AM
There is no case to be made that Michigan's should be counted at all and Florida's can't be counted in any official way.
by Joe Apr 24, 2008 11:47 AM
When it comes down to it, Florida voted and the votes were certified. Giving Hillary the vote in Florida moves her ahead of Obama in popular vote and bings her total delagate count closer. Obama is contesting seating the delegates because it gives Hi
by Jon Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
We knew the votes didn't count... so we did not really vote. So they should not count. Sorry for us... but those are the rules, we need to change the rules.
by Kay Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
Our votes don't count - period. What's happened to playing by the rules. She agreed to not campaign here and now wants the votes to count - huh? The voters turned out for Amendment 1 anyway. Its a bogus vote, anyway you look at
by Helen Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
Please tell the Democrat head honchos that if Florida's votes do not count in the primary, then we will all stay home in November.
by Tallytowngal Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
Maybe someone should tell Muriel K. Offerman that Hillary Clinton did not campaign either! Count the votes of all 50 states... or the election is a sham.
by JK Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
Oh, and BTW, Muriel, Obama DID campaign here.
by JK Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
So I guess I, and almost 2 million other Dem voters just IMAGINED showing up at tha polls. Thanks, Obama.
by James Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
hillary = no principles. it is about delegates, regrettably that's how the system works - most delgates equals the winner. Popular vote doesn't count.
by Issywise Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
Politicians and party bosses shouldn't get to decide who the voters are. Voters should be deciding on the candidates. We need laws to ensure our votes are counted and counted equally--one-person one-vote should be the law of
by Daniel Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
I was upset with Jamal Simmons' comment on Anderson Cooper 360 equating the Florida vote with the American Idol vote. I am tired of the Florida voters being ignored and demeaned. The elitist statement needs to be recanted!
by Slim Apr 24, 2008 11:46 AM
The Democrats treated me and my vote like it wasn't important. Where are we; Cuba, China, Iran? They need to have their priorities re-adjusted. Moderate McCain is looking pretty good compared to these two anyway. The DNC needs to be sl
by Russ Apr 24, 2008 11:45 AM
So who wants to hang Dean? He made this mess. So how will the "common man's" party justify the popular vote being ignored?
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